Thanks for writing this. You have articulated and put into words what I have felt for a while about Jordan Peterson but didn’t know how to explain. I also stumbled upon his lectures and his first book 12 Rules For Life when I was in my early 20’s and found them to be quite encouraging, interesting, and also a message that I hadn’t really heard before.
As you pointed out, the fact that so many young men such as myself needed to hear the message that cleaning up your room might be a good place to start before becoming angry at the world, and that taking on responsibility and some hardships is actually very meaningful, should not be a critique of Jordan, but of our culture as a whole.
I have been truly concerned for his welfare and saddened as I’ve watched him over the last few years, and I hope his daughter or wife will step in and have the courage to be honest with him and encourage him to take a step back and rest. I would be happy if I never saw another angry tweet or video appearance from him again like we saw on Jubilee, and hope he can find peace in living a simple life and being the eccentric professor that made Jordan Peterson, Jordan Peterson.
Sadly his daughter is lapping it up; would she want him to stop? If he did, does it mean her own fame withers as well?
I keep thinking back to his warning to her to never let her autoimmune disorder define her or make her into a resentful victim. She seems to have done just that. Someone else commented that she spent her early adulthood receiving no attention because she was overweight and depressed from her condition. Now that she’s suddenly thrust into fame (and much more attractive, now that she’s suddenly fixed her problem more or less), she’s addicted to the attention. She definitely has a chip on her shoulder.
I’ve met some people like that. Not to the same extent but apparently being constantly overlooked in your teens can cause some major resentment. One of my flatmates, when I knew him, was in his 40s and crawling bars talking to early 20s women because he felt he never got enough female attention at 16. So he can’t give it up, now that girls would talk to him.
I'm afraid we might lose a convert if he continues to be bashed. He took punishment for his intitial stand on conscience. He and his wife went through tough times and it brought her to Catholicism. I look at him & think, "but he could be next. His wife took a leap; he's taking baby steps." Such a man should be feel nothing but encouraged while still being unequivocably contradicted.
I was in my mid teens when Peterson rose to prominence and I would likely have become a devoted follower of his if I hadn’t been politically liberal and had a good relationship with my father. Still I can’t deny he has had some effect on the trajectory of my life and society in general. I sometimes used to defend him against what I felt at the time were unfair criticisms.
Listening to him post-coma it’s hard to tell if the nuance I and a lot of people had thought was there has been lost or revealed to never really exist in the first place.
Chomsky describes prophets as: “Figures who denounce the crimes of their own society and call for justice — not because they can predict the future, but because they speak moral truth to power… The prophets were not revered figures. They were hated and reviled. They condemned the crimes of their own society and called for justice. Today, they would be called dissidents or subversives.”
This is not to say I believe Peterson is a prophet either. Maybe a Profiteer, at this point.
But honestly, in my opinion, his greatest contribution *now* would be to *change* in some profound way. Either, as you suggest, to retreat into nature. Or, as Wittgenstein and Kierkegaard and Tolstoy did, to dramatically change courses, disowning prior work, and perhaps take a leap of faith.
I’m not optimistic about his family talking sense into him. Seems like Mikhaila is the biggest beneficiary of having a famous and erudite father. If she were another health podcaster and not the daughter of Jordan Peterson, she wouldn’t be anywhere. Maybe the son that no one ever hears from…
I wonder if JP is aware of your content? To round off this series of thought pieces, it would be really neat to see a transcript of an interview with him. Perhaps, he could directly address some of the concerns you’ve raised about his past vs former self. While I’m no fan of his, I think you make a valid point about his enigmatic figure and, as you mentioned before, your readership numbers seem to agree he’s still interesting enough to write about.
Would this be something you’d be interested in, or should we just interview a rabid goat at this point?
I assume not, I doubt given the volume of content about him that is produced he has time to engage with some random person on Substack. Although Jonathan Pageau did end up contacting me so who knows...
‘Peterson’s transition from interesting professor to self-appointed culture war saviour was complete, and it was not the same Jordan Peterson as the one who first appeared on Canadian TV to object to an obscure bill about pronouns’
I think this is basically backwards. That ‘obscure’ bill about pronouns was exactly the thing that conferred upon him the role of a major culture warrior. It was not ‘self’ appointed, it was imposed because he was the first to really stand up to the early signs of a growing totalitarianism in Canadian society. Pronouns? We’re talking about the whole of the authoritarian gender ideology that seeks to control speech, not just what one can’t say, but what one must say. Not to mention the atrocities visited upon children in the name of the ideology. He said he was prepared to go to jail for his stance, and I believe it. He was not the only one. Notably, Gad Saad also stepped up, testifying at a parliamentary committee, but otherwise they received no other public support from cowardly colleagues other than the public thousands who recognized what was at stake. This is no small thing and arguably is what determined his influence as a self help guru for young men, men who were not simply looking for a father figure, but a person they could genuinely call a hero. In an age when the heroic is denigrated and all but suppressed in our feminized culture. That ‘obscure’ bill is a major part of what has turned Canada into an Orwellian nightmare, a process that is continuing apace with the new boss. So I disagree with your minimization (dismissal?) of Peterson’s significant courage and personal integrity in the face of tyranny. It’s the one thing I think he still has despite his various travails and missteps.
Critical points. The article purports to be sad about who JP “used to be”, without capturing what it was about JPs character that spoke to people (honesty) or respecting his accomplishments (1. taking a stand against identity politics that was sophisticated without being watered down, 2. questioning new atheism vigorously without abandoning scientific thinking, 3. taking the timely male need for basic guidance seriously and providing it). The author might feel a genuine desire for Peterson to live a life that is more self-respectful, but the article does not respect him.
Pretty balanced take. I’m one who sees the benefit of his influence without hailing him a modern day savior and Bible scholar. He’s a personality psychologist. And as a previous commentary noted, he watched his wife’s transformation and is wildly curious. He’s on a messy spiritual exploration. That’s about it.
I pluck out what is profound and helpful and chuckle at the rest. At the core, he is a fine human being that doesn’t think he’s better than the rest.
As unflinchingly dull as I personally find Peterson to be, I'm not sure I see the value in keeping the focus on him when it seems readily clear that such focus is accelerating his decline, not averting it. The man doesn't need another article, he needs to be ignored so he can actually get back to focusing on himself and work some of his issues out.
You wrote this long winded thing about a guy who lost a debate? And now it's his "fall" ? Everyone reading this could only dream of having the impact that Peterson has had. And he will recover. This is just drive-by bullshit
The people who loved Old Peterson need to pretend he is unchanged, whilst the people who hated Old Peterson need to pretend he's always been like New Peterson all along.
"He was both idolised and condemned in a way so extreme that it seems absurd that anyone could go through it with their ego intact"
This quote sums up what I think about Peterson's journey in the limelight, very well put
This article talks about our obsession with watching but never explains what we’re actually watching, or why. It criticizes spectacle by becoming one. That’s exactly why people misunderstand Peterson: he doesn’t play along. He doesn’t decorate confusion, he exposes it. If you’re used to pretty language that avoids hard questions, of course he’ll seem like the problem.
His questions aren’t difficult or confusing, they’re contrarian by design. Rather than engaging in meaningful dialogue, he derails conversations with rhetorical deflections. His goal is disruption without any purpose. By constantly reframing or challenging basic premises, he shifts the burden of proof, stalls the conversation, and positions himself as a lone truth-teller.
It’s not depth or originality (postmodernists have long done a far better job at challenging dominant narratives); it’s performance.
He definitely has a tendency to "motte and bailey" arguments, saying something contrarian then changing what he means when someone pushes back on his claims.
You clearly know better than me if you personally know his goals. I can understand his public pattern of reasoning and displayed thought process over time depending on the conversation, but I am not privy to his personal aims and goals.
He got his pop culture 3 years of fame and off he went like Marylin Manson playing all the hits at soundwave Festival in Brisbane in an ill fitting leather jacket , gut hanging out his man corset until he passed out falling off ths stage in stupor of drugs and tropical heat. He's just an annoying contrarien like all the Shapiros, chode Rogan and the rest of moronic right wing bullshitarity. Even worse he seems to be closer to Foucault than anyone else, a know it all know nothing. A pox on all their houses i say, I'm going back to being an optimistic cynic and avoiding meaning at all costs.
I think for a lot of guys who were inspired by him when they were younger, he’s just what happens when you see your dad as a flawed person instead of some kind of hero. Seems like a natural progression. I don’t think he’s changed at all, his followers just grew up. He has been infuriating to many people the entire time.
Thanks for writing this. You have articulated and put into words what I have felt for a while about Jordan Peterson but didn’t know how to explain. I also stumbled upon his lectures and his first book 12 Rules For Life when I was in my early 20’s and found them to be quite encouraging, interesting, and also a message that I hadn’t really heard before.
As you pointed out, the fact that so many young men such as myself needed to hear the message that cleaning up your room might be a good place to start before becoming angry at the world, and that taking on responsibility and some hardships is actually very meaningful, should not be a critique of Jordan, but of our culture as a whole.
I have been truly concerned for his welfare and saddened as I’ve watched him over the last few years, and I hope his daughter or wife will step in and have the courage to be honest with him and encourage him to take a step back and rest. I would be happy if I never saw another angry tweet or video appearance from him again like we saw on Jubilee, and hope he can find peace in living a simple life and being the eccentric professor that made Jordan Peterson, Jordan Peterson.
Sadly his daughter is lapping it up; would she want him to stop? If he did, does it mean her own fame withers as well?
I keep thinking back to his warning to her to never let her autoimmune disorder define her or make her into a resentful victim. She seems to have done just that. Someone else commented that she spent her early adulthood receiving no attention because she was overweight and depressed from her condition. Now that she’s suddenly thrust into fame (and much more attractive, now that she’s suddenly fixed her problem more or less), she’s addicted to the attention. She definitely has a chip on her shoulder.
I’ve met some people like that. Not to the same extent but apparently being constantly overlooked in your teens can cause some major resentment. One of my flatmates, when I knew him, was in his 40s and crawling bars talking to early 20s women because he felt he never got enough female attention at 16. So he can’t give it up, now that girls would talk to him.
I'm afraid we might lose a convert if he continues to be bashed. He took punishment for his intitial stand on conscience. He and his wife went through tough times and it brought her to Catholicism. I look at him & think, "but he could be next. His wife took a leap; he's taking baby steps." Such a man should be feel nothing but encouraged while still being unequivocably contradicted.
I was in my mid teens when Peterson rose to prominence and I would likely have become a devoted follower of his if I hadn’t been politically liberal and had a good relationship with my father. Still I can’t deny he has had some effect on the trajectory of my life and society in general. I sometimes used to defend him against what I felt at the time were unfair criticisms.
Listening to him post-coma it’s hard to tell if the nuance I and a lot of people had thought was there has been lost or revealed to never really exist in the first place.
Jordan's time has come and gone. If this was 2000 years ago in the Middle East, he could have been a prophet for a minor religion that got wiped out.
I think his ego would certainly accommodate the belief that he was a prophet.
Chomsky describes prophets as: “Figures who denounce the crimes of their own society and call for justice — not because they can predict the future, but because they speak moral truth to power… The prophets were not revered figures. They were hated and reviled. They condemned the crimes of their own society and called for justice. Today, they would be called dissidents or subversives.”
This is not to say I believe Peterson is a prophet either. Maybe a Profiteer, at this point.
But honestly, in my opinion, his greatest contribution *now* would be to *change* in some profound way. Either, as you suggest, to retreat into nature. Or, as Wittgenstein and Kierkegaard and Tolstoy did, to dramatically change courses, disowning prior work, and perhaps take a leap of faith.
He has followers, so he does kinda qualify. But so does Taylor Swift.
I’m not optimistic about his family talking sense into him. Seems like Mikhaila is the biggest beneficiary of having a famous and erudite father. If she were another health podcaster and not the daughter of Jordan Peterson, she wouldn’t be anywhere. Maybe the son that no one ever hears from…
I wonder if JP is aware of your content? To round off this series of thought pieces, it would be really neat to see a transcript of an interview with him. Perhaps, he could directly address some of the concerns you’ve raised about his past vs former self. While I’m no fan of his, I think you make a valid point about his enigmatic figure and, as you mentioned before, your readership numbers seem to agree he’s still interesting enough to write about.
Would this be something you’d be interested in, or should we just interview a rabid goat at this point?
I assume not, I doubt given the volume of content about him that is produced he has time to engage with some random person on Substack. Although Jonathan Pageau did end up contacting me so who knows...
‘Peterson’s transition from interesting professor to self-appointed culture war saviour was complete, and it was not the same Jordan Peterson as the one who first appeared on Canadian TV to object to an obscure bill about pronouns’
I think this is basically backwards. That ‘obscure’ bill about pronouns was exactly the thing that conferred upon him the role of a major culture warrior. It was not ‘self’ appointed, it was imposed because he was the first to really stand up to the early signs of a growing totalitarianism in Canadian society. Pronouns? We’re talking about the whole of the authoritarian gender ideology that seeks to control speech, not just what one can’t say, but what one must say. Not to mention the atrocities visited upon children in the name of the ideology. He said he was prepared to go to jail for his stance, and I believe it. He was not the only one. Notably, Gad Saad also stepped up, testifying at a parliamentary committee, but otherwise they received no other public support from cowardly colleagues other than the public thousands who recognized what was at stake. This is no small thing and arguably is what determined his influence as a self help guru for young men, men who were not simply looking for a father figure, but a person they could genuinely call a hero. In an age when the heroic is denigrated and all but suppressed in our feminized culture. That ‘obscure’ bill is a major part of what has turned Canada into an Orwellian nightmare, a process that is continuing apace with the new boss. So I disagree with your minimization (dismissal?) of Peterson’s significant courage and personal integrity in the face of tyranny. It’s the one thing I think he still has despite his various travails and missteps.
Agree, I was shocked to see mention of that bill minimized as “obscure,” as if it were of minimal consequence. It was huge.
Critical points. The article purports to be sad about who JP “used to be”, without capturing what it was about JPs character that spoke to people (honesty) or respecting his accomplishments (1. taking a stand against identity politics that was sophisticated without being watered down, 2. questioning new atheism vigorously without abandoning scientific thinking, 3. taking the timely male need for basic guidance seriously and providing it). The author might feel a genuine desire for Peterson to live a life that is more self-respectful, but the article does not respect him.
Pretty balanced take. I’m one who sees the benefit of his influence without hailing him a modern day savior and Bible scholar. He’s a personality psychologist. And as a previous commentary noted, he watched his wife’s transformation and is wildly curious. He’s on a messy spiritual exploration. That’s about it.
I pluck out what is profound and helpful and chuckle at the rest. At the core, he is a fine human being that doesn’t think he’s better than the rest.
The word "sophomore" means "wise fool" from Greek sophia from which we get "sophisticate" and "more" from which we get "moron".
Peterson seems to be the ultimate American sophomore.
As unflinchingly dull as I personally find Peterson to be, I'm not sure I see the value in keeping the focus on him when it seems readily clear that such focus is accelerating his decline, not averting it. The man doesn't need another article, he needs to be ignored so he can actually get back to focusing on himself and work some of his issues out.
You wrote this long winded thing about a guy who lost a debate? And now it's his "fall" ? Everyone reading this could only dream of having the impact that Peterson has had. And he will recover. This is just drive-by bullshit
The people who loved Old Peterson need to pretend he is unchanged, whilst the people who hated Old Peterson need to pretend he's always been like New Peterson all along.
"He was both idolised and condemned in a way so extreme that it seems absurd that anyone could go through it with their ego intact"
This quote sums up what I think about Peterson's journey in the limelight, very well put
This article talks about our obsession with watching but never explains what we’re actually watching, or why. It criticizes spectacle by becoming one. That’s exactly why people misunderstand Peterson: he doesn’t play along. He doesn’t decorate confusion, he exposes it. If you’re used to pretty language that avoids hard questions, of course he’ll seem like the problem.
His questions aren’t difficult or confusing, they’re contrarian by design. Rather than engaging in meaningful dialogue, he derails conversations with rhetorical deflections. His goal is disruption without any purpose. By constantly reframing or challenging basic premises, he shifts the burden of proof, stalls the conversation, and positions himself as a lone truth-teller.
It’s not depth or originality (postmodernists have long done a far better job at challenging dominant narratives); it’s performance.
He definitely has a tendency to "motte and bailey" arguments, saying something contrarian then changing what he means when someone pushes back on his claims.
Exactly.
You clearly know better than me if you personally know his goals. I can understand his public pattern of reasoning and displayed thought process over time depending on the conversation, but I am not privy to his personal aims and goals.
I’m not speculating about his inner life, just pointing out a clear pattern in how he handles public conversations.
"His goal is disruption without any purpose." Isn't speaking to a clear pattern. That is speaking to motive.
There’s a common theme with all these walking disasters. They lack a sense of humour.
He got his pop culture 3 years of fame and off he went like Marylin Manson playing all the hits at soundwave Festival in Brisbane in an ill fitting leather jacket , gut hanging out his man corset until he passed out falling off ths stage in stupor of drugs and tropical heat. He's just an annoying contrarien like all the Shapiros, chode Rogan and the rest of moronic right wing bullshitarity. Even worse he seems to be closer to Foucault than anyone else, a know it all know nothing. A pox on all their houses i say, I'm going back to being an optimistic cynic and avoiding meaning at all costs.
I think for a lot of guys who were inspired by him when they were younger, he’s just what happens when you see your dad as a flawed person instead of some kind of hero. Seems like a natural progression. I don’t think he’s changed at all, his followers just grew up. He has been infuriating to many people the entire time.